Speaker 0What's the password?
Speaker 7Don't talk about it, be about it.
Speaker 0Welcome in to the two-th-point home services VIP room. Where we invite you, the listeners in to hang alongside some of the biggest, baddest and most successful VIPs of the home services industries. You never know, it's the prize guest for show up next. So let's get this party started.
Speaker 5Hey, what's up to the point listeners? Welcome to the to the point home services V-I-P-Rune. And I'm excited today for a couple of reasons. One, because our new co-host, Mr. Ergainer, actually made a podcast episode. So Aaron, thank you for taking time out here. Super duper busy schedule, Mr. important guy. Make a time for our listeners. Time to listen to the podcast, and you bailed on. So Chad, aren't you disappointed
Speaker 1a little bit but always grateful to see Mr. Aaron and excited that he is joined us on this wild wild adventure. We never know what may happen next.
Speaker 5You never know which VIP could jump into the the rim next got a lot of great feedback about our first episode and the new foreign apps so that's really cool and we'll probably have another little surprise guest co-host hop on today, which will make more sense here shortly, but I'm excited for our guest today, he's got his bow tie on looking real sharp. Got the hair slowly though we're. I mean, we're ready to go. I mean, this guy's another marketing guy, just running an HVAC business. But we got to actually, we met a couple of different times over the last, you know, month and a half or so. But a few different events. One was over at Paul Kelly's raising goats event, down in Scottsdale. He was down there. And then we went to over to Beverly Hills of all places a couple of contractors for one of his peer group meetings. And our guests that was on this previous episode, Jason Hanson was also at that same meeting. A bunch of independent business owners just kicking some ass in the market and I thought, maybe we got to get these guys on here and talk about it, but we got a huge joys on the podcast, they were so excited from James River Air Condition Company, actually a couple of different companies, they were one joining us. And if you have IP room, I'm excited to have you in here and what the boys kind of dig into. to your story. He's a character. So he might carry the show for us today. So I think we're going to be like we're going to be just fine. But he's welcome to the show brother. We're happy to have you in the VIP room.
Speaker 3Yeah, thanks. Great to be here today and talk about all things HVAC and home services.
Speaker 5We're going to get into a little bit. I think I've just kind of said that for the listeners, not probably have you talked a little bit about it, is queues down in Virginia. I'm actually, I think you're dead. So this is your second generation. Your dad started a company in 67, right? 67. Um, and you, what about, I think you said you're around 232, 4, 2, 50 somewhere or staff wise, um, some of that range in three locations, your Richmond, Charlottesville, Rowan Oak, um, it's back climbing, electric, um, and you are in residential and commercial. Mostly residential, but you're in commercials. That correct. They get my right so far.
Speaker 3You right on, right on the money, right on it.
Speaker 5See, so far, so good. Look at me, the new one you've proved. Me, I'm doing so good. Well, listen, I want to give a quick shout out to just a couple of our sponsors before we go forward. Something new I'm doing to this. And this one makes sense because, send it email marketing is the new sponsor on the podcast, which you all know who that is. Great new company. I would highly advise seconded to send it email marketing. Quick shout out to Blue Ons you. I should like it's good. That was going to be cool to start letting some of our bigger sponsors hop on as a guest close. Yo, this is going to be in like no different. And then we're not interviewing them. Just open and come on and ask questions from their perspective. That could be kind of cool. So I thought, you know what? Since our other big sponsor is so gracious to let me use their studio today. Since I'm in New York, we might Yeah, pay attention now. But he welcome to the show. Oh, my God.
Speaker 2Here's your guys.
Speaker 5See the Tyson. That's how I say.
Speaker 2How's he going there? Hey, Chad, what's up, guys? What's he going? It's up.
Speaker 5Yeah, yeah. So hey, Hugh, I heard you were just out here not too long ago in the same place I'm at.
Speaker 3Yeah, I was up there, you know, week and a half ago in the glass and closed nerve center of a bokeh. I'm doing some great stuff for us up there. So it was very exciting to meet with them and their sales team and some of the development guys, those really neat company.
Speaker 2We also got to see the next completely dominate. I think it was a game five or something against the hogs.
Speaker 7I think the hogs.
Speaker 2Against the hogs. Yeah.
Speaker 7And then the next just went to Philly put it down.
Speaker 2So yeah, yeah, you guys still got to join us for a game.
Speaker 7Sometimes I got him and I'm I'm I'm a next fan. I'm a next fan then I'm a cast fan that a sun's fan. So got a little loving area's home town next. But I'm all for the next right now. I love it.
Speaker 2Hey, the cast had a great win last night too.
Speaker 7Yeah, they did.
Speaker 5Yeah. Well, I don't care about any of those teams. So yeah, I can help with those. You didn't offer anything nice for me. I was here to dice and thanks a lot. Yeah, that's all.
Speaker 3Oh, well, I highly encourage you to go to the scab box with them. It's very nice over there.
Speaker 5Oh, thanks, you. Thanks. Once you start saying, appreciate that. Yeah. Thanks for highly recommending it.
Speaker 2There was no game. There's no games to the one you're here.
Speaker 5I'm just giving you all the time. It's all good. My wife and I had a great time. By the way, you in an Irish spending most of our day in that same glass glass incubator center that you were in, too. So, well, let's go and jump into Tyson, glad to have gone years ago, so you can just kind of fire away at random this based on, you know, if you have a question of pops up, it's good to have you on your two or on a 62, I think you said around $62 million business at the last year, shooting for 67 this year.
Speaker 360, 65, 66, 67. Okay. See how it goes. Yeah. Six, seven.
Speaker 5I can go into that.
Speaker 3We get a commercial on that.
Speaker 5Oh, we get it. Well, you do that. A commercial with six, seven?
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah, we're saying, you tired. You can't sing in six, seven. Call James Rivera and we'll fix your unit, you know.
Speaker 5for playing right into the social staff got it like well what we do this you let's I kind of give a little bit of an overview too but you know something that you say is you're you know you're a marketing guy around the niche VAC even though you do more of an HAC upon a wedge cool you're probably in the boiler market too over there right
Speaker 3Yeah, a little bit, but mostly primary heat pump market. You know, central Virginia, primary heat pump market, a little bit of gas, teeny, teeny bit of oil. So, you know, but I kind of grew up as an all-electric guy. I do not like fossil fuel systems here. You know, I'm not making a political statement here. Just painting my fanny, they break all the time. I like heat pumps, they're reliable, you know, they make me happy.
Speaker 5Well, let's do this. That's actually kind of a good segue, is because your dad started to come to me back in 1967, which Aaron was born shortly after. So, you know, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, Ah, we're gonna have a lot of fun or I'm gonna annoy a lot of people, but yeah, I love it. You have the screaming goat button there close to you.
Speaker 3I don't have the screaming boat, but I have my bell. You know, I was drinking those bells and I got my bell if needed.
Speaker 5But I heard it. Well, when we do this, let's you'm going to jump into a little bit of just your background, you know, for the listeners to hear, I mean, I talked high level, but maybe you're dead started company in 67 on the web site. There's some pretty old pictures of you on there, what your hair looked a little bit darker than those today. Maybe you just talked a little bit about, you're getting into the industry and then really the things I kind of want to hit on are. You know, when we, you know, me, Chad Aaron, it was Tommy again, whoever we're sitting in the group talking to contractors to different events, you know, I kind of like the vibe of that, how we're just asking normal questions of them, and they're also asking questions back of us. And we have some big players on here, I got to see Aaron and Chad at big, big businesses. So, he'll free to ask away, you know, on the, him as well, because, oh, oh, yeah. If we feel, but to me, it's just a good console. Sorry, let's kick this thing off. Just downstairs. Who we've welcomed into the VIP room. A little bit about a huge ice.
Speaker 3Yeah. Well, you know, I'm hitting Cooling Gabb, then then in the business since I was 15. So I started a shop picking up paper. You know, I did all the things that normal people do. You know, when you're growing up in the business, your dad's running at my grandpa, let my dad five grand to start the business. And back then, train said, you know we we think air conditioning is going to go mainstream in houses and houses weren't really air conditioning back in the sixties. So my my dad was selling children's with a buddy of his worked over train says hey you you ought to go go do that train class and you know there it was basically a franchise teach you how to sell units there's a six week immersion class they sent you back with a book in a any any any did it my grandpa living five grand he got a book in a truck and started selling air conditioner. He was a communication guy. And so we really started on the foundation of trains, goal of profitability, professionalism and financial performance. And we still run it the same way they taught in 1967, but we still use the same little spreadsheets. So fast forward, you know, with Salin went to college. I was gonna be a stock worker. So I really wasn't coming in the business. I was gonna be a finance guy. And got a marketing finance degree. And I was being interviewed and guys in Maryland just to come on a higher year. And it was that's cool. And he said, but I'll tell you, you probably don't need that. getting that family business you're going to make more money and you're going to be whole lot happier than over here selling stocks. I did and I am and here I am with you find people. But I've been running the business since about 1995 and my father died no five. I'm so owner, and I bought my setters out back in the 2010 or so, and so had been kind of running at sense. I always had a unique approach, you know, we're 50, 50, so we're half a residential half commercial. I wanted the two businesses to kind of run side by side. They tend to offset each other, you know, ones a little out of whack, the other is typically strong. And when you get them both cooking, it's really a great way to run. I like it because of the hedging nature. So, you know, we've kind of grown the business on the back of maintenance agreements and service, you know, we don't do any new construction, residential, a little bit commercially. But, you know, we've got, you know, 20 sales people over there, about half residential, half commercial replacement, primarily HFAC, but we do I hold the master, electrical master, master, master, HFAC, and GANSFETER don't have master plumbing. But so, you know, just been in the business and we always wanted to be more of a marketing company, more professional, differentiate ourselves from our competitors. A lot of people have caught up now, you know, that was cute back in the 80s and 90s, you know, everyone's kind of on to it now. But, you know, so here we are, and we're still excited to be in the business. Um, we love what's happening. We love consolidation. We love private equity in the business. Uh, when they make everybody honest to they create value for for the business. If you want to get out of it, they create value if you want to stay in it. Um, so we just think it could be a better time to be in in the home service, uh, HVAC service business. My two boys are in the business now. They're working their way up through. So they were all at it raising goats, uh, with us a couple of weeks ago, you know, really a little more immersed in kind of management strategy. Um, one is kind of in the commercial group and working his way up the others. run in one of our residential companies we bought in Charlottesville that airflow system, so he's up there kind of getting his little PhD in, you know, working with people. So, you know, a lot going on and you know, just a really exciting time to be in the business.
Speaker 1You know, I got a question for you just because I see a lot of similarities in, you know, kind of, my dad started our business, a brother and I took over for him. My kids are not old enough yet to be in the business. Though my daughter wasn't a commercial that she still talks about today, which was pretty cool. How did that transition kind of take place? Were there any kind of road bumps in the transition between you and your dad? And then I guess maybe looking into the future, how do you envision that transition with your boys who are obviously interested in staying in the business and carrying on that? How did you kind of see that? How did that go? And then how do you kind of see that moving forward?
Speaker 3You know, it went, well, you know, with me and my dad went, it went, well, you know, generally we were in the right, you know, he, he was a founder, you know, I was an energy guy, you know, like we got to move this to the next level and the big reason was we got to make, we have to pay two big salary. So if I don't grow this thing, you know, I'm going to be poor. So, but it's very hard to work for your father, I think. You know, because it gets in the and we never had any trouble. I don't think we ever had a crossword in the business, but it is is an extreme challenge because, you know, the family relationship then becomes, you know, intertwined in the business relationship and, you know, it is difficult. I now know sort of what he was going through with one boy in the business. I've got two boys in the business and that's going quite well, but I will say incredibly difficult because not only are you running the business but you're training them and navigating thinking, all the business pressures, but all the family pressures. And by the way, I didn't ask, my dad didn't ask me to come in. I wanted to come in. My two boys worked elsewhere. And they asked to come in. I didn't encourage him to come in. And so I think certainly, it's better to work. So I didn't ever work anywhere else. I mean, I did a little job, but not a big job outside of the business, but I think it's always good if they do. But you know, from me, it's no greater joy than working with your dad or your boys, but it's no greater challenge. I mean, it does completely change the dynamic because you need you can't go in there, guns, ablaze and too much, you know, because you got other things going on. And so on, I've got daughter-in-laws in here. I've got three, and I've got associate with three generations in here. So we're not scared of the family relation. It was, in fact, we think it's quite honorable when a child or a grand child wants to come and work at the business, their parents work at, means we got a good culture that the business is good. So it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, mostly great, but it's a little, a little challenge, so, but overall, the boys are doing a really fantastic job, you know, we're growing, and it's neat to see them, you know, mature and their management role. We also have a really great management team. It's been been good at mentoring them along, and so, I recommend it, but I recommend it with with some element of caution. Yeah.
Speaker 5I'm a fan of I'm a fan of it. I just say you have to have boundaries and that to be clear boundaries and expectations and you don't deviate from them, especially when you have family and because like sometimes they're under more scrutiny because it is family and you got to make sure you're old and everybody accountable. Nobody can slip.
Speaker 3Yeah, it's a lot of pressure. You know, when you're not in a family business, you know, they're less range on you do what you want to do, you know, or. You know, I'll take a certain amount of risk, but I tend to rain in my risk a little bit and, you know, at the end of the day, maybe we could have been a whole lot bigger whole lot better whole lot faster, you know, without some of that that family pressure on risk. But, you know, I'm very pleased where I am, so, you know, it's not so bad.
Speaker 7I think you've done all right. So I've question in the same vein though, because I think it is interesting to transfer in your business over it. Cause I know Chad, when he joined next, I'll remat he was in the middle of taking that over. Do you see the evolution of a Chad came in and kind of, I don't know speak for him, kind of reinvented his family business in many ways that has dad did a great foundation for me. free of that to that. It sounds like you kind of did some reinvented early on to advertise and do stuff. Like, what do you think about when your sons or whoever is going to take over in the family business, allowing them to have the same freedom to kind of reinvent as you said without being, you know, maybe leveraging, letting them have some risk and maybe doing some new things that you haven't done in the past that you're open for for them to, to give them be empowered to take over the family business.
Speaker 3Yeah, certainly. I mean, you know, and we're kind of approaching that zone. These boys are 30. They've opened over year six to seven years. You know, they sort of don't know how to fly the airplane and, you know, it's that that's a very tricky transition because, you know, even another one I think for 30 years and you know, so I have my opinions and everybody has opinions and you know, then when to young ones come in with opinions, that always gets that gets interesting and, um, you know, it's a big complex machines like flying a 747, you know, when I took it over as a little assessment of 172. So there's a lot more going on over here. But the cool thing is, As we do our little acquisitions, we can run out and let them invent that and there in their own little compartment, you know, as a booboo, it's not the whole thing and get straight and then it's some point, you know, the next five to ten years take over the big the big ship. So, you know, and then we certainly as a company, we monitor. everything that's going on in partnering in the industry and growing outside of a partnership. So we monitor all of that and at some point it may make sense for us to bring a partner on. We don't think that we need one, but it may make sense, but the rubric is complex.
Speaker 1You mentioned, you mentioned doing a couple of it. I was just going to say, you mentioned doing a couple of acquisitions. Talk to me a little bit about how you're kind of looking at that. I know there's a ton of different models. There's the traditional PE model where it's, you know, we'll just have a bunch of brands. We'll kind of let them do their own things. So on and so forth, there's, you know, our model is more Clire, rebrand, run everything central as one. How do you guys kind of look at kind of acquisitions and what's kind of in your strategy going into those?
Speaker 3It is a really good question. You're probably doing it the right way. I'm probably doing it the wrong way, but I don't have the heart to buy a company. started in 1937 and change its name, you know. And so I have been buying them and not changing the names. We've got white car engineering at Roenow can airflow systems, which we just brought last year, air flow systems in Charlottesville. And it had a nice little brand up there. Of course, we're James River aired in enrichment. So, you know, I have, um, not wanted to change the names, that the smart money changes the names, then you just stick everything on and move on up the road. We're sticking it on just with a different name. So if I cut a commercial, we'll just do call, gym, driver, air, call, air flow systems, call, white coverage, and you know, it's a quick little change up. But that's been our strategy. And we really, this most recent one was interesting, because it was an older couple, they were retiring, you know, doing about 2 million. And, you know, they had been kind of break even. So it's hard to celebrate even coming, but there's a lot of value in a break even coming, if you, you know, know what you're doing. And so we were able to put a little something together, get it working, and it will have it. We'll do four to four point two this year, 12 months in. And I mean, that thing, the sky is a limit, but that's a really neat market up there. So we'd like, you know, PE doesn't like to buy anything, broken, but we think we can bring a lot of value to the table buying things are a little bit broken that are smaller that we can tweak them around a little quicker. And then maybe put an AI bot in their role fast to get the bots answer into phone and doing this in that, see if we can't, you know, wrap it up a little bit with some of our partners. But, and so we wanna do it, we're gonna try to tee another one up later this year. And, and, and, finance wise, we try to buy them, and these are such small deals, you know, we can internally fund them, you know, because they're not big prices when they're not making any money. And we think we got a pretty neat model they get lucrative for the retiring couple and give them a little bit.
Speaker 2Do you sell a lot of them to roll over a little bit of equity as well?
Speaker 3No, we don't do that because in a private company it's super, super difficult, but what we do do. And most of them are ready to go, so they don't want to go any more risk. So what we do, do we buy them out, do a little whole back and then I pay them as long as they're working, participating, I pay them a percentage of the net profits. pretty rich amount. So they'll get some, but they're not going to get a second bite at the apple, just because on the private side it's so difficult. I have not done any fanom stock or anything for in-house people. And if I did do something, we would treat some of them like they had But what I have seen other guys do is give away, or not give away, but involve minority people in equity, actual equity, and it can be very, it can cause many, many problems on the, if you do partner up with somebody, I mean, I've just seen major problems with a little small businesses like we have.
Speaker 2I had a question on kind of what some of the stuff you're saying. What do you think it is that allows you to restructure and be able to improve a business that private equity can't do? Because you said private equity won't ever get something that's broke in or not doing well. What do you think has allowed you to to be able to find these? You know, these sub part businesses and be able to bring them back.
Speaker 3It's just a couple little systems we've got to put in place, it's not, it's not real complex. And what does a private equity can do it? Is there smart? They're waste motor we are. I mean, those guys running those companies are so smart. We have blows in my mind. They just won't want to do it. They want to do it. They want high performing companies. They won't buy them. They need them to work well. They don't want to mess with them too much. And they need a good leadership team to keep growing them at a good cadence and main They're under a different level of pressure, and typically they're working pretty fast, so they don't have time to screw around. We're not on air side, that that's the beauty of what we can do. We're not on all that pressure. We can do what we want. And certainly we want to do it real well too, because we want to be able to show them at the cocktail parties. We want to be able to show them air even does. And we want air even does it look as good as air even does, and it doesn't. And so we're under a little bit of pressure, but so they don't they don't want to do it, but really what we find I'll I'll take the secret good. No one will do it. I mean you air they're all the same and everyone who does it knows all the same They got a bad sales system. You don't kick terror. They don't take care of the technicians and don't pay the people enough And they don't charge enough and you all you do is going to get a good prior fair pricing treat the text really good Come up with a neat little scheme for those guys Get an aggressive conversion sales system in there and it's all done. But that is a little harder than what I am saying in most of them won't do it. So it's tricky, but two different things, two different ways to get to the same, I think the same outcome, which is success and profitability and happy customers, the
Speaker 7So, for other people that are thinking about maybe your structure, if they like that structure, I mean, it seems to be working for you success. Like, how do you frame out your shared services? Like, how do you operate your business? How do you create scale, right? In that model, like, is your dispatch kit consolidate? You have one dispatch center that handles for all the locations to you. I know you can throw a vote gone for the phones for anybody, right? So that's a great tool to have, but you have one call center, like, are you operating all these pretty independently even through operations?
Speaker 3We're too stupid to have one call center. You've got to be smart from big call centers. And I love a name. I mean, look, I have been in some big ones. We were over in Paul, it's Paul Kelly's and it's like, oh my, yeah, typically, and ultimately we will, we will bring them together. Right now we run them locally. I find, you know, and again, both ways are good. I like having local dispatchers, having no other things or when they're talking to people when you're dispatching text from another town, you always get into trouble. So we have not consolidated operations yet. And there are some economies of scale if we do that, but we haven't done it. So we've got clients, private call techers, and dispatchers in each of these, and each of these locations. And ultimately, what I think will start doing, which we get a little tighter, and I didn't mention, we just did our service tighten implementation, so about 40 days into that. And through you know, we're getting, you know, getting, you know, it with multiple tenants and all that kind of things. So we're just getting all that straight in. And once we get that a little more refined, what we'll do is we'll probably end up having the mothership up here, Jane Trevor, which is the backing up these other entities. And ultimately, we'll have more synergies, but I do like having some boots on the ground in dispatch and scheduling that know that market versus having them do it from two states away, which I got buddies doing it that way and they're making more money than me. So, you know, but I'm also in the business would like in any business and, you know, some, like someone or less pressure, but, you know, so that's where we are now now, now that was a long-winded answer to, we can solve it, but I think they will ease in that way, over time. Can I, it's your service time referral bonus? Oh no, look, they, they, they, they, they'll, you ask them. U.S. Vahey and are, they'll tell you, the longest sales cycle of any class was made. You and Chris Hoffman, because I remember, I remember Vahey being over here in my front conference room, you know, back, I mean, he was down a little pinto or something. And you're talking about this new software. Good for now, right?
Speaker 8Well, that's why you're now.
Speaker 3I would come in and make sure the drones and for our reason. I'm happy for them. Look, those sides have worked so hard and you know, it's just neat to see them succeed like that in, you know, the product is, the product is good. You know, it is very hard to do these implementations. And so, um, well, why would I ask the question?
Speaker 7And then you went this long. You said you're in the longest sales cycle
Speaker 3because my other software was sunset, they turned it off. It was an old genius thing because you got to learn all that. And excess in those, you know, I mean, it was just an accident. I'll, but no, they sunset it. And, you know, it'll blow your mind, you know, look, it did everything. It did a payroll, it did a geo accounting, truck manager trucks, a fleet, everything. It did it beautifully. Wasn't pretty. 50 grand a year and it worked great, follow, follow us and you know we're spending a lot more than that and you know it you know it it and it does more but but they pull this out of their kick and drag and then try it. But we're here. And we do love the way it integrates you and the arrowvoka partners and we haven't talked to them much. But they're integrating with us and we'll integrate live into the board. And so I mean, there are some things that are going to be big time on the front end of the business. Back end, I continue to open that I think software should be built on the foundation of payroll. Minutes worked. accounting, GL, dispatch, and the equipment that we're operating, you know, site, system, equipment, component, sub-component, so that, you know, the essence of the system is those things, and all that other stuff you can have. But payroll and accounting is the foundation and that is normally of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, side thought, not just service tighten either all of them. Everybody, nobody wants to do those. And you know, there's so integrated into the business, you know, the minutes. I want to, I want to run it by the minute. And you really can't do that if you don't have a good integration. And nobody has it. So I'm not picking all service tighten there. So that's why it took so long.
Speaker 5Hey, I have a first off. You maybe think of something you're talking about, are I involved in service titan? Tyson Frette told me, say congrats to you on your series B, a billion dollar evaluations, a big deal, man.
Speaker 3I was 1.2 billion.
Speaker 4To me.
Speaker 2No, it was one point.
Speaker 4I saw one point one. Maybe I dreamed it. Maybe I dreamed that last. Only one billion.
Speaker 2Sounds like you. You want to invest at the 1.2.
Speaker 3Well, I was a little upset that I wasn't called in on friends and family on that last one. But we're going to get straight to the camera.
Speaker 7I have the biggest miss ever on this. So don't you worry. Don't you worry Tyson can tell you I think Tyson all mean like four years ago maybe I don't even know was it like four years ago he's been cheating call me.
Speaker 2I don't know you at the time but it was right after Josh Campbell from rest year was like hey you got to meet Aaron we have the same Goldman Sachs like
Speaker 7adviser guy and then I spoke to Aaron and yeah, he didn't return my call He didn't return it long we talked a couple times, but then I didn't end up Giving him any money which I told him I was a dinner with him I long ago with your events. I'll sit next to him. I was like Could I go back in time and rewrite it just like half a mill? I don't know something
Speaker 3Look, I apologize if I said anything bad to the salesmen last week, but that's the LP for that week, by the way.
Speaker 8Congratulations.
Speaker 2Oh, no, they loved you here.
Speaker 3You did a good bunch of guys.
Speaker 5Yeah. Hey, everyone, Chris, can't wait a long time. I mean, I got, I want this one. Thank you. Hey, Ben, I'm glad you're here. By the way, I'm glad you're here. Sitting here, no, yeah, I'm glad you're here. Hey, I do have a question of you. There's no issue pre-straining me. You can't talk to a little bit about this, This is a question I want us to ask more often guys like I think this would be a good one to ask on this podcast to know that like what part of the home service industry do you think is broken, but no one wants to admit it.
Speaker 3Oh, my god. What part of the home services industry is broken and no one wants to admit it. That's a question. Give me something good. If I tell you they'll kill me.
Speaker 4No, we want to know.
Speaker 7This is a question that we want to start asking. We want to start asking this question. What do you think is broken home service?
Speaker 3Oh, I don't want to say it. I can't say it. I'm going to, uh, it's our ability to manage the minutes and technology to do it so that we can We can't do it if we don't manage the minutes. And the technology solutions just can't get us there yet. And that's all of them. I'm not picking on anybody. We can't manage the minutes. And at the end of the day, we air technicians and air installers walk into their world with 480 minutes. 480 minutes. How we help them amplify those minutes, use those minutes, deploy those minutes, and at the end of the day give them a score card and gamify their time, and show them how their payroll works, and show how can create customer, enlightenment. It is my ultimate frustration that this has been my frustration for 40 years that I can't really get to the next level in that and that's not picking on anyone because it's not easy it's very very difficult and I'm just too dead gum. I am able to find the right people because we need to go down into Dungeon turn you know get everybody away from us in about six weeks would clawed we could probably have it done but it is a problem.
Speaker 5Wow, look at him dropping cloth in there, I love it here. Yeah, I love some cloth.
Speaker 3I'm trying to learn Claudique, won't talk to my email yet. I'm so mad, it says, I won't delete anything. That's a cloth, go in there and delete the spam. But Claud is really amazing. I continue to have my mind blown by that, along with a vocal in my butt. Those are choosing to blow in my mind lately. My butt. And somebody, I can't even say. After class, I'll tell you what somebody said about the bot. I don't want to be neat. So, but technology is still our challenge. You know what I mean? And I get into the next level and some of this functionality. I think is a pretty big deal.
Speaker 5Good, Jen.
Speaker 1I was going to ask you a question. We talked a little bit about your acquisitions, how you kind of look at that. I was doing a little bit of research, not as much as my fellow co-host according to the main host here of this show. But when I was looking at it, it looks like you guys have not only do, obviously you've got the residential commercial split, but you're not only doing HVAC, plumbing, electrical, you've added appliance, And I don't know if you've added it or that was like a main thing, appliance, you've got some basement stuff. Were those things that you added later on, what was kind of the impetus for adding those? I guess maybe to wrap it all up, what advice would you give to people? Because I get this question all the time, when should I add another trade, what should I do, so on and so forth? How did you guys kind of look about it?
Speaker 3You know, as a really good question, and a lot of those were doing with partners now, personally, I think less is more and I think focus is probably better. One area of the appliance area is incredibly difficult. So we finally got in this is just a recent development. I only partnered up with a really a big local appliance place in his service. We just share that that share that back and forth. Now we had appliance technicians and we just we are we are right as we speak kind of. easing away from that business. So I really think the ones that go well together, plumbing, electrical and HVAC. HVAC typically drives everything. I think when you get past that I got buddies in pest control, I got some buddies in appliances. I like to stay a little more focused in every time I get less focused you know, we sort of kind of regret it. So, my suggestion is, and I, on the cross-based basement waterproofing, I acute ducts size, duct sealing type of kind of things, we do that with a partner. And we do it, sometimes we do it, you know, I've had it in house, I've had it out of house. I've got a, I like having a couple really good subs on that. You know, where we can work together, you know, they're referring us business, where we're referring them business, it may be under air contracting brand or they're contracting brand. So, but I think less is more, and I really, the gooses that are going to lay the golden eggs force is HVAC and plumbing, electrical under pins a lot of that. You know, so we like having the electricians in, just so we, and we still sub-electrical a lot too. So we can be fast and quick and responsive to the client. So I think less is more on that.
Speaker 5Listen, yes, a marketing guy. I use air quotes for all the listeners. Marketing guy, marketing company that does HVAC, I'm assuming you have a strong opinion on this. I do. I'm guessing Aaron will have a strong opinion as well, but what hill are you going to die on as a marketing company that's HBAC?
Speaker 3What hill am I going to die on? I'm going to tell you what hill I'm going to die on. I'm going to die on the hill that humans want to be with other And we can bring as much technology in as we want to bring in and we can do much Google and all this other kind of stuff. But at some point in time, humans want to touch other humans and be talked to by other humans and from a marketing perspective. And I tell all my people, you know, we can get you as many Google leads and all this other stuff. But if you don't walk next door when we're doing that job and not on that door and say Mr. customer, here's my card. I won't, you know, I'm doing a job next door for this client. And my guys leave any trash out here or they're playing their music too loud or we're parked in the wrong place. Would you give me a jingle? And if we don't go next to the other door, we're going to fail. And I move. And the same thing in the commercial sector, you don't go in to walk in and talk to some people and follow up with people. If we're going to be in trouble, so yes, I love and I'm an old-world guy. So I'm radio TV, you know, and I'm having a very difficult time. in the online Google AI, all the search, and how that does, and there's winners and losers, but I'll tell you who's gonna win every time, humans are gonna win. And so if we stick to that, and we're gonna do all the other stuff. We're spending all the money on Google and redo our website and all this other kind of stuff, but if you don't knock on the door and you're sure stuff, they're customers and you don't be nice to them and we don't drive our vans good, we don't keep them clean, and we don't have good, human contact, we're in deep, deep, deep, dude.
Speaker 5And this is such an interesting topic to talk about, um, I don't disagree with them.
Speaker 7I think the human element is definitely the most important part, right? It's just understanding what's happening in the, you know, the new, um, answer a world online, right? It's like you got to know what you're doing here. How did you create real human content? That meaningful people want to watch and then also understand how do we answer more questions for people today than we ever did online? That's that's what it's all going to, right? AEO so it's like how do you get that while doing that? I think if you can do both of those then that I mean you're doing a sort of skyrocket past people, right? More than ever It's interesting, it's an interesting change in the changes real and it's happening and the people that don't adapt will be, in my opinion, is my opinion will be pretty much in many ways a race from being able to be found online through this new change. I'm a bit, I do a lot of radio and TV2, so I very much believe and that's still a strong market and will always have its place, but then when I go to the search engineering, right?
Speaker 3It's crazy, you know, I do find myself even going past Google to, to Claude for just basic ordinary search now, but it's become so wondering. But so, and I think all of that, you know, AI and advertising on that marketing and, and, and bots and all the kind of they, they underpin, you know, what, what we're doing, and we want to be really good at, at all those, and I had to jump up and down to get my people to even let me hook up my and initiatives let us send an email. But I will also say in addition to that the human is going to win and I think we need to keep human. And I'm for AI, so I'm not an anti-AGA guy or anything. But I think the other thing that's interesting and everything we do, you have 90 seconds before it's ruined. 90 seconds to get something entered and dealt with 90 seconds to follow up. 90 seconds to be on top of a lead. So that is so much faster than it used to be. And it's hard, you know, it's hard to get everybody to understand how fast, you know, we have to be even my own place like my online people say, you know, you're just a complete failure. You were like six minutes on this response and blah, blah, blah. So, you know, my underpinning
Speaker 5Hey, you said, you have, I think you sent me over or we talked about this or I could be wrong completely wrong, but it's a by also a little figure, right, but you, I think you have 12 13 14 15,000 agreements or something like that, right, yeah, yeah, about about 13,000 residential and about 900 commercial. Yeah, so that's, that's you. And there you tell me, I think about maintenance agreements. I was thinking about GMD DominoCo, because in him building that business on the back of his memberships. But what have you done? I'm interested in this, because you have multi trade and you have multi location and you have not have multi-brand and you have multi-brands. Is what have you done? Like in the, with the maintenance agreements that actually increased lifetime value, like not just the membership count, but what actually increased lifetime value of your customership.
Speaker 3That's a really good question. First, we have decided to focus on HVAC as the essence of the membership. And with that agreement, you get a priority service, you get your inspections, you're cleaning, and you get 30% discount on your repairs off our flat rate book and that has worked well we extend that out to electrical and plumbing. So if they want those, if they need those services, they get that same discount. We are not doing a complementary inspection yet. As soon as we get every thing, we have to redo 13,000 agreements because they don't come from a unit space system You know, properly. So you know, we got, as soon as we get them redone, we are going to continue to enhance the value of those possibly with a couple of free dispatches in there so that you've got that tether a little better tether to the client like you don't want to let it just go because if something breaks you're going to have to pay a dispatch charge versus not being one. So we're a little bit in, we call them bow time memberships now and they have a little bow time element all that kind of thing. But we do think that is one piece of the secret sauce to make in these home service businesses work well. And commercial service businesses work well. Our commercial maintenance basis, about four and a half million dollars a year, which spins off about another six in TNM work and then another 20 in projects. So those things are the life blood of these businesses.
Speaker 7I think people under value those I think we just saw a great deal with service champions group our champions group right that just went down and and a lot of that was around their membership right they that that value proposition For Blackstone jumping and buy that company had a lot to do with that membership base and how they maintain that relationship and grow that relationship and what it looked like and I think indeed and they're really can't be in that yeah they really service champions really cascades that out to those are the trades yeah which just you know creates.
Speaker 3You know, EBITDA said it's so beautiful. I've just never seen anything. They're almost as beautiful as Aline Goushe Dress at the Met of Gala of last Monday. You know, that bubble, that bubble fresh you wore. Oh, you got to look that up. That was pretty cool. But you're way more enduring than me. I love it. Oh, you didn't, you weren't. You didn't watch the runway tapes from the Gala of the other day. There was some good stuff, but Aliens, you're not there actually, you're a problem. You had those there.
Speaker 1Yeah. Front row taking pictures.
Speaker 3Yeah. I don't know that. But back to that, service agreements really are a key piece of building the value of these businesses. But residential and commercial, and add into plumbing and garage doors and with the is these these landscape or these lawn care ones, they're getting some big big multiples too. So with that service champion, it brought tears to my eyes. How beautiful that deal was.
Speaker 7And the guy, I think very happy for them, but I mean, both the point was like, there was a lot of membership, you know, as a maintenance membership basis.
Speaker 385,000 was some crazy number.
Speaker 7There was a huge number, 100,000, right? 100,000, okay, it was a lot of the memberships. I just tell you how valuable memberships can be as at lifetime of you build on the lifetime value of a membership. I think as we view the scale of our business, we've tried to grow about more we have about 22,000 members now. And we're just trying to understand like, what is the LTV to that? And I don't think people calculate that properly. I understand that. So you have a calculation that you do that. You understand the lifetime value to this point. It says you want to deliver the maintenance, but there is a lifetime value proposition to this membership financially, right?
Speaker 3Oh, and we've never really formally calculated. Service Titan does do it once you get some history in there. It will calculate it. But bottom line, it's huge because invariably, the average life of error agreements is 7 or 8 years and invariably in that timeline, you're going to get one replacement machine in a couple of repairs. So it's $200 a year agreement is certainly in my mind worth $20,000 easy, you know, over that same period, and probably way more, you know, that's a good question. We've never really gone back and done a formal study, but I may do know we've got customers that we've put in, that we're on that like their third, you know, replacement machine, you know, we've been, been long, long time clients, but, um, know that. And I also think essentially the security companies, you know, they get valued on only on their monitoring revenue. That's their annual recurring revenue. That's where they get all their big value. You know, in HFAC, they don't even look at that really for us. They look at EBITDA, but they don't really look at the, at the memberships and personally, You know, one day maybe when when we get air sucked a few thousand, we can go back in and try to get them to rethink it and say none of them, the multiple are a hundred, you know, because they are are what you know, but But the memberships are a big deal, and really the other thing that's a big deal in my mind is the numbers of pieces of equipment that you have under contract, you know, because, you know, if you got a lot of one system, that's less than if you got a lot of two systems in, you know, when no one, and not been on this, this is right up there with the minutes in the 480 minute deal. No one really looks at our client base and says we have a customer, it has a site, it has a system or multiple systems made up of components and they don't relate them. So you just get this big long list of shenanigans and whatever they look, when I look up at the account, I don't say they have three systems, first, four, second, floor garage. And when I click on first floor, it opens up and says they got a blower. They got a good edge unit, they got a humidifier, and a dehumidifier, and a thermostat. So five components. And no one ever says, what components do you control? How many? And many compressor-bearing units do you have? And the systems don't look at it. They don't really analyze it. Components and sub-components back up to the system and then to the site. And, you know, commercially, it's a really big deal if you've got 100 systems with two components. You got, you know, that's 200 things you're filled with on one agreement. So, you could look, say, they've got 900 agreements, but we've got thousands of components that we control, which, you know, typically 10% revenue off those things. So, you can pretty much use a number, whatever the value of all the components are, 10% that's a spin off on the maintenance. So, that may be even a good way to go back and say, what are the lifetime, what's the lifetime value? You just, that 10% spin off revenue. No one looks at things like that, drives me crazy. You know, when you go in and the equipment's all over the place and it doesn't relate, I know service tightness working on this, by the way, as a point of order, but I think it's a pretty big deal, particularly for a positional awareness for technicians and dispatchers and CSRs, you know, what's broken? And if they can't narrow it down to the system, you gotta put it to the site, but most of times they, my first force broken, so click the call there, you know what you're doing. You know, when you get out there, you know, but I'm saying, this is, I got a red light repair on the blower and I got a green light a yellow light repair on the condensing unit and, you know, everything tracks and it's it's tight and I can't get tight now I never have been able to get tight either now with my other system. So, um, I don't know if anybody's going to think you're now. Just so we're clear. I know.
Speaker 7And you actually, what do you think the question is really is like, how do you value it? How do you think about it? How do you do that? And I think, and I know these other guys, my, that's becoming closer to the end here at time. But, you know, so, so you said you're a marketing company. You have 13,000 members. So I love actually leaned on these memory. Much of people three systems with you probably over lifetime. So when you're balancing those two, like how much, how much, what's your percentage that you spend on marketing? Because you seem like you're a lot. Do you have like, What do you spend to revenue a marketing percentage? Are you high-end-e-low as your membership offset your repeat day?
Speaker 3That's on inner residential group. It's about 6%. It should be more. And you see, it's just crazy. When people go to 10%, this happens when they go to 15% this happens. Yeah. But again, we're somewhat of a conservative. We're not growing 20% a year. We're growing 7.810, 11%. It's more conservative. But so six. And we do a pretty good job of getting credit back and that kind of thing. So we're about 50, 50, old world media and new world media. So about half of our money is radio TV billboards, trucks and about half of our money is paper click, you know, all the other different, all the other different things that we do online. So, you know, you've got the two things that try to triangulate. But it's a big marketing is what keeps me up at night because it's so easy for someone to capture things. And if you get control of Google and Google type, eat and cool and air me, and it always goes to X, Y, and it's not me, we got problems.
Speaker 5That's a whole other conversation with that. I would love to be in. Hey, Hugh, listen. I know it's at the top of the hour. So I want to make sure everybody out of here. But I appreciate you taking, given all of us through time. And then let me kind of throw a couple of curveballs at you. And having to deal with this group of people. And I'm just grateful that one we got to connect a few times over these last couple of months and that we're able to do this. So thank you.
Speaker 3Yeah, no, it's great to chat with everybody. And beat some ideas around. and certainly good to see our seat. You guys up at the glass and closed nerve center in New York City there with the evoker guys and all the opportunities with them. So it's just exciting time. The business is, we're finally getting some respect. I'll never forget, my sister was getting married this long time. We got some pretty wealthy dudes. This guy was Carl Eikon, Secretary or something, I don't know, it was a faint, much of amending. My, I think my, one of our friends heard the mom, my, my sister's husbands, mother and father Tottenham said, and they were talking about the wedding, which is that I have to say, and there were plumbers at the wedding. You're son of a damn plumbers.
Speaker 6So we always had all those damn plumbers. Here we are, here we are now.
Speaker 3Here we are, you know, everyone's saying trades and it is, I mean, I do think trades are gonna be super impactful in the next 20 years, so it's exciting. This is exciting.
Speaker 7I agree. We're very fortunate to be doing what we do.
Speaker 3Absolutely.
Speaker 7And the trades are definitely looked at differently than they were, you know, when I started in 1997 in the trades, right, and now look where they are today, right? So I get it. It's exciting to be around. So thanks for sharing some of the stuff. You know, at more questions for you, but I know we got time, you know, there's a. But it's great to meet you. It's good to hear about your business. It's always good to hear that people out there doing these buildings still great independent businesses. It's exciting to see in here. So congratulations on all your family success. I look forward to seeing your family come on. If there's anything I can ever do or reach out, let me know. Love to chat with you, man. So congrats.
Speaker 3Thank you. It's great to chat with all you all. And congratulations. Everybody's got neat things going on. So it's super exciting. So thanks for having me on.
Speaker 5Yeah, fun time on our industry and uh, Tyson, thanks for one. Let me still your, your studio and make you use your own office. So I really hit that and come and on and to Chad naren, man. I'm glad we could finally have everybody. everybody on one on one podcast. So listen to all my listeners, we talk about a lot of different things. Um, making always tell you, man, don't talk about it. To be about it. So we'll see you next week, back here with us, your friends, the new, whoever, let's surprise guests going to be on the two-point home, services VIP show, we'll see you.